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Pseudomugil cf. gertrudae Aru
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Hans



Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 56
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:59 am    Post subject: Pseudomugil cf. gertrudae Aru Reply with quote



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Mark~N



Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 1526
Location: MA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:31 pm    Post subject: Aru Reply with quote

What a great looking new species of gertrudae Hans!.. did you get enough from Marcel to breed?.give us a little run down on your experience with them.are they typical size for pseudomugils?...(water,feeding,).can you clarify the -cf- in the species title for us? i can't wait til these get here in the states! Thanks for this awesome share Hans !

Mark~
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Hans



Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 56
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I got these from Marcel (Dielen) from Belgium. I have bought a group of 10. I just got them two weeks now, so there is a lot to be discovered about these fish. I've had gertrudae's before and these fish will be about the same size. You will notice the yellow piece of the caudal fin and also the beginning of the anal fin is longer than the rest of the fin.
The cf stands for 'confer'. That is: a fish believed to be a getrudae species, but better scientific determination is needed to confirm that. Heiko Bleher discovered these fish in 2007 on the Aru-islands near New Guinea.

At the moment I'm feeding the artemia powder and (frozen) cylops and daphnia. In a few weeks time I will try to breed with these fish.
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apisto57



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Location: France

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys !

just saw this post about these jewels.
I give you what I have about this new variant.

Little vid of mine and some pics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=949jLd1E8jY









Males present one or two yellow spots at the edge(s) of the tailfin and other present blue spots. All the males have a hook at the end of the anal fin. This hook has the same color than the spot(s) in the tailfin (yellow or blue). When I saw them for the first time, i (and i was not the only one) thought it was a variety of p.paskai.
They seem to be relatively easy to breed. Some wellknown breeders here Europe got dozen of them in some months.
I have 4M and 6F since one month and have about 20 juvs now but i only find 2 or 3 eggs a day. Shouldn't there be more ? The first week I got them, they laid 6-8 eggs and suddenly, only 2 or 3.
I feed them with many live food (BBS, cyclops, daphnias, grindal worms)
so they should be more productiv in my opinion.
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Arsène

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Gunther



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 40
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

apisto57 wrote:

I have 4M and 6F since one month and have about 20 juvs now but i only find 2 or 3 eggs a day. Shouldn't there be more ? The first week I got them, they laid 6-8 eggs and suddenly, only 2 or 3.
I feed them with many live food (BBS, cyclops, daphnias, grindal worms)
so they should be more productiv in my opinion.


Well, two things I could think off:

1) it's not the breeding season for them in nature, maybe they still sense that?
2) you still get the same amount of eggs, but most are eaten? If not by parents, perhaps by snails or shrimp?

But it is indeed a bit weird given their excellent diet.
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apisto57



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are no shrimps and no snails in that tank Gunther.
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Arsène

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rainbowbratt



Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 704

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few thoughts about not finding many eggs....

What time of day do you check your mops??

Are there any other types of fish in the tank??(I dont know if what I'm seeing are females of this species, or a different kind of blue eye??)

Have you tried separating the males and females for a few days??

Maybe reduce the number of fish in the tank??--as in--move a 3-4 females to another tank for a few days, feeding them well of course. Then, add 2 males one evening after feeding..... check the mop in the morning after they get done with the most energetic phase of their spawning.....this way hopefully you can get to the eggs before they do??

I'm thinking they are probably eating a lot of the eggs. It happens, and it part of the challenge of breeding these fish. You can always work around it, just different tricks work for different types of fish.

HTH
~Lori
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apisto57



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for answer Lori
Yes there are some p.ivantsoffis in the same tank.
Mops are checked twice a day, at 1 pm and at 8 pm. There are 3 mops (2 are floating and 1 is on the bottom)
I can't be there earlier in the morning because i'm at work.
Lights turn on at 10 am.
I don't like to separate the males and females because manipulating them always causes stress and a risk of loosing some fishes.
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rainbowfish



Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 973
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's a good idea to ever pull eggs from a tank that has two different Pseudomugils in it. I don't care what the so called experts say. I think I have seen small signifers chasing gerts into a mop and that's a really good way to inadvertantly start a cross. We haven't had one in Pseudomugil, to my knowledge yet but why chance it. Ivantsoffi are egg eaters and a lot more pushy than gerts. BTW do you have Deky creek or Kopi river Ivanstoffi? Deky creeks, Heiko claims are really Ps 1 "Timika" See FOS Vol 22 #4 Oct-Dec 2008 pg 468 (no photos just the comments there). They have yellow AND red in their dorsal. Kopi rivers, with a totally yellow dorsal are supposedly the real deal. This is what Heiko told me after seeing my photos in Canada a few weeks ago. I've sent an email and photos again asking for confirmation, just to make sure. I think the two varieties act differently too although my Kopi river fish are still much smaller than the Deky creek fish. There are some really nice photos of this Aru cf "gertrudae" in that journal also. I can certainly see that "paskai" color and look. Also, from what Heiko says this is where the type description of gertrudae comes from. Unless there are also gertrudae in the area and this is something else this was the fish that was used in the original description. AND I think this means if it is different enough the other "gertrudae" would have to be called something else.. Won't that be fun!

Get the ivantsoffi their own tank and try again. Really load up on the live daphnia (I'm assuming it's live because frozen/freeze dried is NOT the same at all). If you have access to blackworms find some small ones to feed to them. Sneak a tub out into the back portion of the yard and try to grow some mosquito larvae. Keep after them so you don't raise any mossies. This is the premo Pseudomugil food. Naturally feed smaller wigglers for the smaller gerts.

You didn't mention water changes but they do enjoy their water changes. If you don't change good amounts of water you may not be getting optimal amounts of eggs. Also make sure the mops are thick enough to help discourage egg eating. At least 60 revolutions around the book (120 strands). Also try a short floating mop and then one that almost touches the bottom of the tank. Beats me why they like one or the other but sometimes they will prefer one way over the other. Think about location in the tank too. Near filter vs away from filter and take note.
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apisto57



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 28
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ivantsoffis are Deeky Creek from Heiko. I'll put them into another tank soon and see what happens. The 3 mops should be ok but I noticed that there are more eggs in the mop that is on the bottom.
I've a 300 l tub outside where i keep the daphnias and cyclops. Never saw many mosquito larvaes in it.
Water is changed every week and the fishes are very active and seem to be in a good health.
Thank's for answer Gary. Perhaps, we'll meet next week-end in Germany.

Arsène
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rainbowfish



Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 973
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's tough getting them to get all of their fins spread out so that you can see that cool little yellow hook on the end of their anal fin. I still a lot more work to do on this one. Hopefully get it doing the "Pseudomugil dance", the reason we keep them anyway.

Gary

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Hans



Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 56
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of displaying going on yesterday. I think I sat for an hour to look at that beautiful dance! I'll spam some pictures.





















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rainbowfish



Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 973
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work. I was wondering what F-stop you were using on your camera? Some of the pictures look like it was a fairly shallow depth of field and could have benefited from having an F-16 or F-22 that would have given you complete focus, especially in the head to tail shots. Although it could also be the difficulity of getting perfect focus with these crazy fast moving creatures. They are hard enough just to watch to see their colors much less focus and shoot! These little critters are really maddening, trying to capture their antics before they move into another position. If you are using a shallow F-stop try going to F-16 or F-22. If you lose too much light go to a higher ISO setting, but unless you have one of the newer Nikons or Canons (w/in the last year) keep it under 800 or you will end up with a grainy look.

Looking at the two pictures and adding the ARU II photo that I also have on this same thread:

1) some of your males have white on the pelvic fins and the elongated first ray of the anal fin. Others have yellow. Don't you think this is strange to have so much variability in a Pseudomugil? I did go back to the aqualog though and notice that these same patterns occur with P. paski. Didn't know though whether these were from different areas or color varieties in the same area.

2) Compare your fish to the photo of my Aru II. My fish have yellow tips at the bottom AND top of the caudal fin.

3) I also have the same variability in the fish that I have, I just didn't photograph the white ones and I also have one that has only yellow at the bottom tip

Personally I like the double dip of yellow in the tail and the yellow in the elongated first ray of the anal fin. Unfortunately you can't tell anything from the females as they don't have any color in their caudal fins. I think that would be the trait to fix for. I think one must take each female to each male, one at a time and then grow up the offspring to see what you get, and hopefully be able to fix the desired traits.

Cheers,

Gary
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Hans



Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 56
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed I did notice that your fish had two yellow spots on the caudal fin. I bought my fish from Marcel Dielen (11 in total) and none has the spot at the top of the caudal fin. So I was wondering if there were two species from Aru. There was some talk about on rainbowfish.org about two species (Aru II and IV, I think). The two yellow spots give the fish more symmetry, so I can understand that people like that more. But (as a graphic designer) I do like to get out of some borders... Laughing

About the white and yellow tips of the elongated first ray of the anal fin: as I stated before, the fish come from the same batch from Marcel. They were not two different species. So I think this could be just a colour variation.

I'm not a professional photographer, but I do like to take good pictures and there's a lot to improve. We'll get there. I have a Nikon D80 with a Nikkor 18-200 zoomlens. On it I sometimes screw the Canon Close-up lens 500D. There's only one TL above this tank, so minimal light conditions. ISO at 800, I think with this serie. And (standard) flash.

About the fish:
this I found the day after the showing off in the mop:



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Gunther



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 40
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rainbowfish wrote:

2) Compare your fish to the photo of my Aru II. My fish have yellow tips at the bottom AND top of the caudal fin.


Wim Heemskerk also reported this when he sold me some of these beauties. That some of the males have both tips yellow on the caudal, but not all. The three males that I have, only have one yellow tip.

The other Aru branch (Aru IV) do not have the elongated first dorsal fin.

He got both strains from Marcel Dielen, and has decided to keep them separate. Marcel however has apparently abandoned the idea of two strains (or maybe he lost one?).



@Hans, it's rainbowfish.info not .org Wink
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