Rainbowfish Forum Forum Index
support and discussion forum for Rainbows
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

A thought on Ich

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rainbowfish Forum Forum Index -> Disease & Problems
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mikev



Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 2264
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: A thought on Ich Reply with quote

(Not a disease case -- I actually did not have Ich in my tanks for 2.5 years... but a thought that occurred to me and I'd like your comments).

It is known that different species of fish show different levels of resistance to Ich; in some, the disease tends to be very mild, in some others it explodes very quickly, leading to tank wipeouts. A classic example here is the clown loach.

It seems to me that there is a correlation between the rate of the metabolism in fish and the intensity of the infection. For example, clown loaches are high-metabolism fish; otoh kuhlis (which may get ich, but not a disease explosion) are low. Ich in black-line rasboras is possible, but the disease tends to be mild, milder than for example in rainbows or danios; again, rasboras tend to be slow-moving, low-metabolism fish.

If this is true, the explanation would be simply that the Ich parasite fully relies on the host for the nutrients, and it can obtain much better nutrition from a high-metabolism host.

Does this make sense?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
plaamoo



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might also be that these high metabolism, high strung, species are more prone to stress that weakens their immune system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Colin_T



Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1259
Location: WA, home of the Salamanderfish

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure metabolism has anything to do with which fish develop Ich. It might as you stated, help provide more nourishment to the parasite when they feed from a host with a high metabolic rate. However, I have had tanks of fish, which were all the same type, and some developed whitespot while others didn't. And some developed whitespot at different rates to others. I have had this happen in rainbow tanks that contain several hundred young of the same species, and also in marine tanks with clownfish/ anemone fish. Some got the spots but others didn't.

I personally think it comes down to the overall health of the fish. Fish that are being bullied (subordinate clownfish) were more likely to develop spots, whereas the dominant pr didn't develop any spots.
Poor water quality/ dirty environmental conditions will also have an effect on who gets it. Basically the more stress a fish is under, the more likelihood of it developing the disease should the parasite get into the tank.

The toughness of the fish' skin might also play a roll in the development of Ich. The parasite cannot attach itself to crustaceans due to their exo-skeleton. The shell is too hard for the parasite to get a hold. The same might be true for certain fish. Fish with thicker skin (ie: fish that burrow in the substrate) will be less affected because fewer parasites will be able to attach themselves and start feeding.
There were studies done years ago on using slime coat enhancers to treat whitespot. There was a big thing about it back in the late 80s when people were recommending the use of products like "Stress Coat" and "Aquatan" when transporting fish. Apparently you add some of the stuff to the bag of fish and it helps prevent diseases.
The theory was the chemical increased the thickness of the slime coating on the fish and made it harder for disease organisms to infect the fish.
A similar thing has been noted in Discus & Uarus that were rearing young. Adult fish that had a decent slime coating for feeding their offspring, were significantly less likely to develop whitespot or other diseases even when diseased fishes were introduced into the tank. The thicker slime coat was thought to have prevented the pathogens from entering the fish’s skin and causing a disease.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
plaamoo



Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you seen this?
http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-news/2009/12/07/ich-discovery-research.aspx
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikev



Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 2264
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I did, thanks to you, interesting....

It may be worthwhile reading the actual article rather than the popular version, where they say, for example,

Quote:
There are currently no drugs or chemicals that kill Ich while it inhabits the fish, according to the University of Georgia. It can only be killed when the parasite is in the water. Therefore, all current therapies require a cyclic re-treatment program.


they are wrong, flubendazole does work in all stages; additionally some other therapies can work without re-treatment (high temp; but even conventional meds *may* succeed with one dosing).

Actual ref:
Endosymbiotic Bacteria in the Parasitic Ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis
H. Y. Sun, J. Noe, J. Barber, R. S. Coyne, D. Cassidy-Hanley, T. G. Clark, R. C. Findly, and H. W. Dickerson
Appl Environ Microbiol. 2009 December; 75(23): 7445–7452. Published online 2009 October 9. doi: 10.1128/AEM.00850-09.
PMCID: PMC2786411

Link to the online version of the article.

Donno if this has any practical meaning..... here are two things from the article:
Quote:
The physiological relationship between these endosymbionts and I. multifiliis is not understood. As all theronts do not contain detectable endosymbionts, the endosymbionts do not appear to play a critical role in supporting the growth of I. multifiliis, but their presence must also not be particularly detrimental to the growth of I. multifiliis. It is not known whether they play a role in the pathogenesis of I. multifiliis infections or if they affect the immune response of infected fish.


In other words, these symbionts may not be optional and play no role in Ich whatsoever, and perhaps not present in most strains of Ich.

Quote:
Sequence analysis demonstrated that 16S rRNA gene sequences from three classes of bacteria were present in the PCR product. These included Alphaproteobacteria (Rickettsiales), Sphingobacteria, and Flavobacterium columnare.


Are we talking Ich with Embedded Flex here?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Rainbowfish Forum Forum Index -> Disease & Problems All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Hosted by DSDhosting